.
THIS WAS AN INTERVIEW DONE IN 2021 FOR AN ONLINE MAGAZINE NOT REALLY RELATED TO CLIMBING, SO THEY DIDN’T CUT SOME OF THE STUFF A CLIMBING-RELATED PLATFORM MIGHT.
–
WHY ‘IGGY’?
IN 2007 I SNUCK BACKSTAGE AT AN IGGY POP CONCERT. AT THE TIME I WAS ALREADY SKINNY AND HAD BLEACHED HAIR, AND WAS COMING OFF SOME INJUIRES THAT HAD ME IN BANDAGES, AND IGGY’S ENTOURAGE WENT BY AND SOME GUY MADE THE JOKE “HA HA MAYBE YOU’RE THE REAL IGGY POP”. FUNNILY ENOUGH, IGGY AND I HAVE THE SAME BIRTHDATE AS IT GOES. ALSO, IN THE ARMY MY CALL SIGN WAS IGGY BECAUSE IT CARRIES BETTER THAN ‘ED’.
.
WHAT DO YOU DO?
I RUN MOUNTAINEERING TRIPS INTO PLACES YOUR FRIENDS HAVE NEVER HEARD OF, WHICH MEANS LOTS OF LOGISTICS, EMERGING TECHNOLOGY, GOVERNMENT NEGOTIATION AND FINANCE AND STRATEGY. THE CLIMBING PART OF ‘CLIMBING FOR A LIVING’ IS ACTUALLY FAIRLY SMALL.
.
WHAT MADE YOU GET INTO CLIMBING?
NOTHING MADE ME GET INTO IT, I GOT INTO IT BY CHOICE. MY DAD WAS A CLIMBER SO I FIRST WENT CLIMBING WITH HIM FROM WHEN I WAS ABOUT 10. I LIKE IT A LOT BUT IT WAS ONLY WHEN I WAS ABOUT 14 AND HE TOOK ME TO A DOUG SCOTT TALK THAT I ALL REALLY CAME TOGETHER. SEEING DOUG SCOTT IN THE FLESH AND HEARING ALL THE TALES AND SEEING THE SLIDES WAS LIKE REALIZING I’D BEEN LOOKING AT THE WORLD THROUGH BINOCULARS THE WRONG WAY, AND THEY WERE SUDDENLY TURNED AROUND.
.
HOW DID YOU START CLIMBING BIG MOUNTAINS?
IN THE EARLY 2000’s I BOUGHT A ONE-WAY TICKET TO CHINA WITH NO PLAN OTHER THAN TO HEAD WEST FROM THERE. I CROSSED TIBET BY ROADS I WASN’T REALLY MEANT TO, THEN WHEN OVER THE KARAKORAM HIGHWAY INTO PAKISTAN AND GOT TO SEE BIG MOUNTAINS UP CLOSE. I DECIDED TO STICK AROUND, THEN THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN STARTED AND IT BECAME THE MOST INTERESTING PLACE TO BE, SO WITH A TRIBE OF SIMILARLY-MINDED PEOPLE I SPENT THE NEXT FEW YEARS CLIMBING, TREKKING AND TRAVELLING ACROSS TIBET, XINJIANG AND THE NEWLY OPENED CENTRAL ASIAN REPUBLICS – OFTEN UNDER THE RADAR. IT WAS A UNIQUE TIME THAT WON’T COME AGAIN.
.
WHEN DID YOU FIRST GO TO K2?
I FIRST SAW K2 FROM THE CHINESE SIDE IN 2002 WHEN TREKKING OUT THERE WAS EASIER THAN IT IS NOW, BUT I DIDN’T GO TO CLIMB K2 UNTIL 2010, FROM THE PAKISTAN SIDE.
.
WHY K2?
I’D BEEN TO NEPAL AND SIKKIM A FEW TIMES BUT DIDN’T LIKE THE HUGE COMMERCIAL ELEMENT, AND BACK THEN PAKISTAN WAS STILL PRETTY MUCH A FAR LESS COMMERCIAL EXPERIENCE IN THAT ONLY ABOUT 1/10th OF THE NUMBER OF CLIMBERS WENT THERE. I MEAN WHEN I WAS ON K2 THERE WERE ONLY 30 PEOPLE IN THE WHOLE BASECAMP OF WHICH ONLY 8 OF US WERE CLIMBING. WHAT PEOPLE SEE OF K2 TO NOW IS A RECENT THING. IN 2010 IF YOU’D SHOWN UP WITH OXYGEN YOU’D HAVE BEEN GIVEN SOME ATTITUDE. WHAT PEOPLE THINK OF K2, THE REPUTATION FOR BEING SUPER-DANGEROUS etc IS A DECADE OUT OF DATE. THESE DAYS IT’S FIXED JUST LIKE EVEREST IS.
.
SHOWED UP WITH OXYGEN?
YEAH THE BOTTLED OXYGEN SOME CLIMBERS USE TO MAKE CLIMBING 8000m PEAKS EASIER.
.
HOW DID YOU START YOUR BUSINESS IN CHINA?
IN PAKISTAN I FOUND I WAS ALWAYS TELLING PEOPLE ABOUT THE CLIMBING IN CHINA AND EVEN THOSE THESE WERE EXPERIENCED MOUNTAINEERS NO ONE KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT IT, INCLUDING THE FACT THAT THE ENTIRE NORTHERN SIDE OF THE HIMALAYA’S WERE THERE. SOME SMALL INDEPENDENT GROUPS WERE CLIMBING IN CHINA BUT IT WAS A BIG DIVIDE FROM THE 8000m STUFF, SO I TRIED TO CONNECT THE TWO. NOT AN EASY TASK AS THE FACTORS INVOLVED ARE PRETTY DYNAMIC AND KEEP CHANGING, BUT IT’S EVENTUALLY COME TOGETHER.
.
WHAT SORT OF FACTORS?
IN THAT TIME CHINA HAS CHANGED BOTH INTERNALLY AND FROM THE OUTSIDE MASSIVELY, MEANWHILE SO HAS THE HIGH ALTITUDE CLIMBING INDUSTRY. CHINA NOW IS MUCH EASIER TO WORK WITHIN, BUT EXTERNALLY PEOPLE VIEW IT DIFFERENTLY DUE TO POLITICS, USUALLY MISINFORMED. 8000m CLIMBING HAS EVOLVED A LOT TOO, FOLLOWING A BUSINESS MODEL THAT HAS SHRUGGED OFF HAVING TO BE WESTERN-LED. IT’S GOOD TO SEE LOCALS RUNNING THEIR OWN SHOW, BUT THEY ARE SOMETIMES REPEATING THE BAD PRACTICES THAT THE OLD WESTERN VERSIONS HAD.
.
WHERE DOES FEEDING THE RAT EXPEDITIONS FIT INTO THAT?
WE DON’T REALLY. GUIDING AND INDUSTRIAL MOUNTAINEERING CAN ONLY WORK WHERE CERTAIN FACTORS ARE PRESENT AND THOSE THINGS SIMPLY AREN’T WHERE WE RUN TRIPS. THE WHOLE PROCESS OF LOGISTICS AND STRATEGY TO MAKE AN 8000m PEAK COMMERCIALLY VIABLE AS AN ENTERPRISE HAS A HUGE INDUSTRIAL BACKEND TO OUTFIT, SUPPLY, MANAGE AND TROUBLESHOOT AND IN CHINA, PERHAPS SURPRISINGLY, MOST OF THAT’S NOT PRESENT. WE DON’T COMPETE AT ANY LEVEL WITH WHAT YOU SEE ON SAY EVEREST – DIFFERENT PEOPLE ENGAGE WITH US, CHINA HAS A DIFFERENT SYSTEM TO WORK WITH IN EVERY WAY, WE ARE NOT LOOKING FOR THE SAME THING.
THE FEEDING THE RAT EXPEDITIONS MODEL WORKS BECAUSE WE ALREADY HAD A DECADE OLD WAY OF RUNNING TRIPS WE’D ESTABLISHED IN SICHUAN, SO WHEN IT CAME TO XINJIANG WE HAD THE METHODOLOGY AND CONTACTS TO RUN THINGS ALREADY. SICHUAN AND EASTERN TIBET SEES 10X THE CLIMBERS XINJIANG DOES AND HAS WORKED OUT HOW TO GET THINGS DONE REALLY WELL. WHEN IT CAME TO TALKS WITH THE CHINA MOUNTAINEERING ASSOCIATION ABOUT ESTABLISHING REGULAR TRIPS TO THE NORTHERN KARAKORAM WE HAD A LOT TO BRING TO THE TABLE.
.
WHAT WAS DEALING DIRECTLY WITH THE GOVERNMENT LIKE?
THEY HAVE THEIR WAYS, BUT WE HAVE A CREW THAT REALLY UNDERSTAND ALL THAT SO IT WASN’T THE MONOLITH OF UNMOVING BUREAUCRACY SOME THINK IT IS. WHEN YOU THINGS RIGHT, THINGS IN CHINA MOVE VERY FAST, THE INVERSE BEING THAT IT’S A LONG GAME TO GET THERE.
WE STARTED DISCUSSIONS IN 2010 WITH THE XINJIANG MOUNTAINEERING ASSOCIATION, IMMEDIATELY AFTER COMING OF K2 FROM THE PAKISTAN SIDE, LITERALLY A MATTER OF WEEKS. WE’VE SAT WITH THEM NUMEROUS TIMES IN URUMQI AND HAVE ALMOST WEEKLY CALLS. THESE GUYS KNOW WE ARE NOT OVERNIGHT SENSATIONS AND IN CHINA THAT GOES A LONG WAY. IT MEANS WE CAN DELIVER ON TRIPS PLANNED OVER YEARS – SOMETHING SOME PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR WITH TRIPS BUILDING TOWARDS A BIG GOAL.
.
WHAT ARE YOUR CUSTOMERS LOOKING FOR?
OUR TEAM MEMBERS ARE LOOKING FOR A MORE OLD SCHOOL VERSION OF HIGH ALTITUDE CLIMBING. FOR SOME IT’S A FANTASY BASED ON BOOKS THEY’VE READ, FOR OTHERS IT’S SOME SORT OF ETHIC AND FOR SOME IT’S A SORT OF GRADUATION FROM THE MORE COMMERCIAL STUFF THEY’VE DONE BEFORE. WE DON’T GET PEOPLE WHO JUST WANT TO STAND ON A SUMMIT.
.
WHAT IS YOUR MOTIVATION FOR ALL THIS?
I LIKE THE FACT THAT WE HAVE AN ENTIRE SERIES OF MOUNTAIN RANGES COVERING THE MAJORITY OF THE WORLDS HIGH ALTITUDE PEAKS TO WORK WITH AND THAT NO ONE ELSE SEEMS TO HAVE PICKED UP ON IT. WE GET TO BASICALLY START AGAIN AND DO THINGS RIGHT, AVOIDING THE MISTAKES OF THE PAST, AND THIS TIME DOING THINGS BETTER. THESE DAYS ALL THE LATEST GEAR AND TECHNOLOGY MEANS WE CAN CLIMB THESE PEAKS WITH REALLY REFINED BACKEND AND THE WAY THE CHINESE AUTHORITIES STRUCTURE THINGS MAKES IT VERY EFFICIENT.
.
YOU SEEM VERY POSITIVE ABOUT HOW THINGS WORK IN CHINA.
CHINA’S A COMPLEX PLACE AND WITH THE WAY THINGS CHANGE THERE PERSPECTIVES GO OUT OF DATE FAST. I HAVE MY VIEWS ON THINGS – BASED ON A LOT OF TIME THERE OVER THE LAST 25 YEARS – AND DON’T THINK THE WESTERN MEDIA ALWAYS HAS IT RIGHT. MY PERSPECTIVE IS AROUND RUNNING CLIMBING TRIPS THERE, AND JUST AS I DON’T LET THE GOVERNMENTS OF ANY COUNTRY DICTATE HOW I VIEW THE CLIMBING, NEITHER DO I WITH CHINA. GOING TO THE MOST REMOTE PART OF A COUNTRY AND SPENDING WEEKS BEYOND CONTACT ISN’T THE WAY TO GET INFORMED ABOUT THE MECHANATIONS OF THINGS LIKE FOREIGN POLICY, SO I DON’T PRETEND IT DOES. AS FAR AS RUNNING TRIPS IN HIGH ALTITUDE WILDERNESS, CHINA DOES IT VERY WELL.
.
HOW DO YOU PREPARE FOR THE TRIPS YOU RUN?
MOST YEARS THE BIG TRIPS HAPPEN OVER A BLOCK FROM MID-SUMMER TILL THE START OF WINTER, SO I HAVE THE REST OF THE YEAR TO GET FIT AND DO THE ADMIN. I RUN A LOT, REGULARLY ULTRA-DISTANCES, KEEP IN GOOD CONDITION WITH STRENGTH SESSIONS AND WEEKEND CLIMBING AND BY THE TIME THE NEXT EXPEDITION BLOCK COMES AROUND HAVE ABOUT HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF PREPARATION TIME BEHIND ME.
.
DO YOU LIFT WEIGHTS?
NOT REALLY. I THROW SOME ROCKS AROUND AND USE MY BODY WEIGHT AND CARRY HEAVY PACKS, BUT I DON’T GO TO A GYM. I LOOK AT MY PEFORMANCE AND THE THINGS THAT OTHER CLIMBERS ARE LIMITED BY AND THINK THERE’S BETTER WAYS TO GET BETTER AT CLIMBING.
.
HOW EXPENSIVE ARE THE TRIPS YOU RUN?
THEY’RE EXPENSIVE BUT WHAT YOU GET IS NOT AVAILABLE ELSEWHERE. PEOPLE PAY THE SAME OR MORE TO DO SOMETHING HUNDREDS OF OTHERS HAVE DONE BEFORE, WITH US YOU’RE PAYING FOR SOMETHING UNIQUE, OFTEN THAT WILL ONLY EVER HAPPEN ONCE. OFFERING THE SAME THING SOMEWHERE LIKE PAKISTAN OR NEPAL WOULD BE MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE, BUT THEN THE SAME THING DOESN’T REALLY EXIST BECAUSE THE COUNTRY IS DIFFERENT. IN CHINA THE MONEY GOES TOWARDS VERY DIFFERENT THINGS, SO COMPARING THE TWO IS HARD, BUT BUSINESS-WISE THINGS ARE MUCH HEALTHIER IN CHINA WHICH SURPRISES MANY.
.
HOW ARE THINGS BETTER IN CHINA?
IN CHINA MORE A TRIPS EXPENSE GOES TOWARDS STAFF AND GOOD LOGISTICS, MEANING MORE OF WHAT A CLIMBER PAYS GOES TO THE QUALITY OF A TRIP AND LESS TOWARDS PERMITS AND CORPORATE PROFITEERING. THE GOVERNMENT OF COURSE TAKES A SLICE, BUT IT’S MUCH LESS THAN OTHER COUNTRIES, AND THERE’S LESS INTERFACE BETWEEN US RUNNING THE TEAM AND THE OFFICIALS TURNING THE WHEELS. AT A SUPPLY LEVEL, CHINA ALSO HAS EVERYTHING SO NO NEED TO IMPORT INTERNATIONAL-QUALITY SUPPLIES. IN PAKISTAN IF YOU WANT A JAR OF PESTO YOU NEED TO BRING IT IN – IN CHINA YOU GO TO A WHOLESALER AND GET IT OFF THE SHELF.
.
WHERE DO YOU SEE THINGS EXPANDING TO IN CHINA?
I DON’T REALLY. WHAT WE HAVE NOW HAS SO MUCH POTENTIAL THERE’S A LIFETIMES WORTH TO DO. THERE’S NO NEED TO GET BIGGER BUT THERE’S EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO DO THINGS BETTER. IN MY OPINION, THE NUMBER OF CLIMBERS WANTING SERIOUS, REMOTE, HIGH ALITUDE TRIPS IS ACTUALLY REGRESSING BUT THEY ARE GETTING MORE SERIOUS WITH WHAT THEY WANT. TRENDS IN BIG CLIMBING HAVE BEEN AWAY FROM MORE EXPLORATORY STUFF AND TOWARDS OTHER THINGS, AND RIGHT NOW THE IDEA OF REAL EXPEDITION CLIMBING LIKE YOU SAW IN THE 70’s IS AMONG A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE. WHAT’S INTERESTING IS THAT SERIOUS EXPEDITION CLIMBING HAS NEVER BEEN MORE ACCESSIBLE, FAR MORE OF THE HIGH ALTITUDE AREAS OF THE PLANET ARE OPEN THAN EVER BEFORE, BUT JUST BECAUSE MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE OFF TO THINGS LIKE EVEREST DOESN’T MEAN IT TRICKLES DOWN.
.
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT NIMS AND HIS ASCENTS OF ALL 8000m PEAKS IN UNDER A YEAR?
PHYSICALLY AND LOGISTICALLY AMAZING, NO QUESTION THERE, BUT AS FAR AS CLIMBING GOES IT’S NOTHING INTERESTING AS IT WAS ALL BUSY ESTABLISHED ROUTES FULLY DECKED OUT WITH CAMPS, CREW AND FIXED LINES. I THINK NIMS HIMSELF IS QUITE COOL, I LIKE HIS AUDACITY AND MOTIVATION TO PUT HIS HAND UP FOR RESCUES etc, I THINK IT’S A SHAME THAT HE TOOK ALL THAT AND BECAME A GUIDE THOUGH. I’D LOVE TO SEE HIM GET INTO FIRST ASCENTS AND APPLY IT NEW ROUTES AND NEW PEAKS, OTHERWISE HE MAY JUST GO DOWN IN HISTORY AS A NOVELTY RATHER THAN A GREAT CLIMBER.
.
WOULD YOU COLLABORATE ON A TRIP WITH NIMS?
IN A HEARTBEAT, THOUGH I DON’T REALLY SEE WHAT THAT COULD BE. THE BACKEND HE USES WITH THE BIG TEAMS, HELICOPTERS AND COMMERCIAL CLIMBING STYLE ISN’T PRESENT WHERE WE GO – AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO BRING IT IN – BUT IF HE DEVELOPS THE SKILLSET FOR ALPINE-STYLE CLIMBING THEN THERE’S A COOL DISCUSSION TO BE HAD.
.
WHAT DO YOU SEE FOR YOUR OWN CLIMBING IN THE FUTURE?
THERE’S LOTS OF STUFF I HAVE PLANS TO CLIMB, SOME THAT USES SMALL BOATS INTO INCREDIBLY REMOTE PLACES. I’M INTERESTED IN SOME OF THE 6500-7500m STUFF WE ARE FINDING ACCESS TO. I THINK MY PIECE IN ALL THIS IS BEING THE GUY WHO JIMMYS OPEN THE DOOR TO THE CHINESE KARAKORAM, SOMETHING WHICH INVOLVES MUCH MUCH MORE THAN JUST THE CLIMBING ELEMENT, SO I’M REALLY INTO THAT. I LOVE THE CAMELS AND THE RIVERS OUT THERE, AND THE OVERLAP WITH TIBET WHERE WHOLE CULTURES MEET. I’M NOT A SUMMIT JUNKIE IN THAT I DON’T FIXATE ON TAGGING A PEAK, BUT I FIND IMMENSE SATISFACTION IN GOING TO WHOLE PEAKS THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN EXPLORED. TO ME THE FEELING OF BEING THE FIRST TO SIMPLY GET TO A MOUNTAIN AND TRY IT EXCEEDS ANY FEELING FOR SUMMITING SOMETHING THAT’S BEEN CLIMBED BEFORE.
.
LET’S LEAVE IT AT THAT. ANY MORE TO SAY?
PLENTY MORE, BUT FOR ANOTHER TIME.
