THE MOUNTAIN AREAS OF CHINA ARE LIKE A TIME CAPSULE FROM BEFORE THE LAST 40 YEARS OF ADVENTURE TOURISM
THIS INTERVIEW WAS DONE FOR THE JAPANESE MAGAZINE WILDERNESS BUT NEVER PUBLISHED IN FULL BEFORE THEY DISAPPEARED. WE INCLUDE IT HERE BECAUSE IT GIVES A GOOD OVERVIEW OF SEVERAL OF FEEDING THE RAT EXPEDITIONS’ ELEMENTS. THIS IS THE ORIGINAL, BEFORE EDITING AND TRANSLATION.
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WILDERNESS MAGAZINE: WHY DID YOU START THIS BUSINESS, HOW DID YOU START THIS BUSINESS AND WHY DID YOU CALL IT SOMETHING SO STRANGE?
FEEDING THE RAT EXPEDITIONS: WE NEVER REALLY ‘STARTED IT’, WE JUST ENDED UP DOING THESE THINGS. YEARS CLIMBING IN CHINA AS THINGS OPENED UP THERE AND THE WAY OTHERS INVOLVED WITH ALL THAT CAME AND WENT ENDED UP WITH US AS THE ONLY GROUP WHO HAD THE REDTAPE & LOGISTICS WORKED OUT RIGHT AT A TIME WHEN PEOPLE WANTED IT.
IN ENGLISH ‘FEEDING THE RAT’ IS WELL KNOWN TERM THAT’S BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME AND WAS THE TITLE OF A FAMOUS, MAYBE DEFINITIVE, BOOK ABOUT THE BRITISH CLIMBING SCENE IN THE 70’S. IT MEANS FEEDING THE URGE TO GO DO PRIMAL, SURVIVALIST TYPE THINGS – OTHERWISE THEY WILL GNAW AT YOU AND MAKE YOU CRAZY. IN ENGLISH IT ALL MAKES SENSE.
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WM: WHAT’S IT LIKE OPERATING IN CHINA?
FTRE: MUCH BETTER THAN PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE. PEOPLE THINK CHINA HAS SOME SORT OF BUREAUCRACY THAT CAN’T BE WORKED WITH BUT THAT’S ONLY IF YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND IT OR TRY AND GET AROUND IT. WE HAVE GOT TO KNOW THE AUTHORITIES VERY WELL AND DON’T HAVE ISSUES, BUT PEOPLE NEED TO ALSO UNDERSTAND HOW FULL ON THE MOUNTAINS IN CHINA ARE – PLACES LIKE K2 AND TIBET ARE WILDERNESS ON A SCALE FOUND SEEN ANYWHERE ELSE. IT’S LIKE IT WAS IN SHIPTON’S TIME STILL. THE CHINESE HAVE A DIFFERENT ATTITUDE TO THESE THINGS COMPLETELY. THE MOUNTAIN AREAS OF CHINA ARE LIKE A TIME CAPSULE FROM BEFORE THE LAST 40 YEARS OF ADVENTURE TOURISM.
IT CAN BE EXPENSIVE BUT THAT’S BECAUSE CHINA ISN’T NEPAL WITH MIGRANT WORKERS AND MUD ROADS. HIGHWAYS AND CREW WITH UNIVERSITY DEGREES COST MORE.
WM: WHAT SORT OF COMPANY SET UP DOES IT TAKE TO RUN THE SORT OF TRIPS YOU DO?
FTRE: IT TAKES A VERY FLEXIBLE ONE. WE ARE CLIMBERS WHO RUN A BUSINESS. WE DON’T HAVE OFFICES WITH SECRETARIES. WE RUN THINGS FROM LAPTOPS IN HOTEL ROOMS, PHONES FROM TENTS AND CONNECTIONS IN AIRPORTS.
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WM: WHAT SORT OF THINGS DO YOU DO IN CHINA?
FTRE: FEEDING THE RAT EXPEDITIONS SPECIALIZES IN HIGH ALTITUDE CLIMBING BUT OVER 20 YEARS WE’VE CROSSED THE NORTHERN TIBET PLATEAU ON HORSES, PADDLED DOWN RIVERS IN THE JUNGLE AND WALKED INTO PARTS OF THE GOBI DESERT AS WELL. NOWDAYS WE FOCUS ON THE HIGH ALTITUDE STUFF IN TIBETAN AREAS, XINJIANG AND NORTHERN KARAKORAM. MOSTLY FIRST ASCENTS.
BECAUSE WE’VE PLAYED THE LONG GAME WE ARE THE ONLY PROVIDERS OF TRIPS TO THE NORTH SIDE OF K2, WHICH IS SOMETHING WE TAKE VERY SERIOUSLY. WE’VE SEEN THE WAY THINGS WENT ON THE PAKISTAN SIDE AND DON’T WANT TO SEE THAT HERE.
WM: WHAT’S HAPPENED ON THE PAKISTAN SIDE?
FTRE: WE CLIMBED K2 FROM PAKISTAN IN 2010 AND THERE WERE 8 CLIMBERS AND 30 PEOPLE TOTAL AT BASECAMP. THESE DAYS THERE’S HUNDREDS. IT’S CLIMBED THE SAME WAY AS EVEREST NOW – FIXED ROPES TO THE SUMMIT, STAFF CARRYING OXYGEN UP IT, HUGE CAMPS ALL OVER THE SLOPES. IT’S SIMPLY PART OF THE 8000m CIRCUIT. IN 2010 OXYGEN WAS A DIRTY WORD THERE, EVERYONE PRE-ACCLIMATED SOMEWHERE ELSE SO THE ROUTES WERE FREE OF GARBAGE, ALMOST EVERYONE CLIMBED INDEPENDENTLY.
THINGS CHANGE, WE KNOW THAT – AND THE PAKISTAN SIDE NEVER REALLY WAS REAL WILDERNESS AS THERE’S ARMY BASES AND HELICOPTERS EVERYWHERE – AND IT’S NOT FOR US TO GET INVOLVED. BUT ALL THOSE PEOPLES HAVE TO SHIT SOMEWHERE, ALL THOSE TENTS GET SHREDDED AND FROZEN INTO THE ROUTES, ALL THOSE ROPES ARE BLEACHING AWAY UP THERE, IT IS WHAT IT IS, BUT THAT ISN’T THE 8000m WILDERNESS EXPERIENCE.
K2 WAS THE LAST 8000m PEAK REALLY TO SUBMIT TO INDUSTRIAL CLIMBING, FOR LOTS OF REASONS, SO WE WANT TO RETAIN THE NORTH SIDE AS THE LAST EXAMPLE OF WHAT IT CAN BE LIKE WITHOUT ALL THE SHORT CUTS THAT COMMERCIAL CLIMBING OFFERS. IT’S THE SAME K2 OBVIOUSLY, BUT THINGS ARE SO DIFFERENT WE TREAT IT LIKE A ANOTHER MOUNTAIN.
WM: DO PEOPLE WANT THAT SORT OF THING?
FTRE: MOST PEOPLE DON’T EVEN KNOW ABOUT IT! ASK ANYONE WHICH COUNTRY K2 IS IN AND THEY DON’T REALIZE IT’S PARTLY IN CHINA. BUT YEAH, A SMALL TRICKLE OF CLIMBERS WANT TO GO THERE BECAUSE IT’S A CHANCE TO GET AWAY FROM THE DRAMA AND GOLDFISH BOWL OF OTHER PLACES. FOR MANY THE FAMILIARITY OF THE 8000m SCENE IS WHAT THEY WANT – THEY LIKE THE WAY IT ALL WORKS, BUT FOR A FEW IT FEELS LIKE A SAFARI.
WM: IS IT EXPENSIVE?
FTRE: ALL 8000m TRIPS ARE EXPENSIVE AND THE XINJIANG SIDE IS ABOUT 2/3 OF THE WAY UP THE SCALE. IT’S NOT A BUDGET OPTION BECAUSE THERE’S NOT 40 OTHERS SHARING THE PERMIT AND LOGISTICS, AND CHINA’S MORE DEVELOPED THAN NEPAL WITH ROADS, HOTELS, RESOURCES AND WAGES, BUT IT’S ALSO MUCH CHEAPER THAN THE NEW BREED OF HIGH-TECH TRIPS THAT HAVE LOTS OF STAFF, LOTS OF OXYGEN, HELICOPTERS, YOGA SESSIONS, WIFI & HOME ACCLIMATION PROGRAMS.
THE NORTH SIDE OF K2 IS A GOOD DEAL IF YOU WANT TO SPEND ON SERIOUS MOUNTAIN TIME AND THE AUTHENTIC EXPEDITION EXPERIENCE. EVERYWHERE ELSE HAS INTERNET AND HIGH FLOW O SETS THESE DAYS, BUT ONLY WE HAVE BACTRIAN CAMELS!
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WM: HOW HARD IS IT TO CLIMB IN THE NORTH SIDE OF THE KARAKORAM?
FTRE: IN WHAT WAY – LOGISTICALLY OR PHYSICALLY?
WM: BOTH
FTRE: OK. LOGISTICALLY IT’S INVOLVED BECAUSE THERE’S NO ‘OFF THE RACK’ PROCESS FOR IT. THE AUTHORITIES HAVE SOME REGULATIONS WE NEED TO FIT AROUND, BUT WE PUT TOGETHER THE REST AS A TEAM, NOT AS A COMMERCIAL ENTERPRISE WHERE WE CAN JUST PUT NAMES ON A PERMIT. THINGS LIKE PACK ANIMALS AND SECURITY LIMIT HOW MANY PEOPLE CAN BE OUT THERE AND THE FLOW OF THE RIVERS DICTATE THE SEASON.
IN THE PAST THERE WERE SOME REAL PROBLEMS WITH THE LOGISTICS, BUT THE AUTHORITIES HAVE ADDRESSED MOST OF THEM, AND AS THE AREA HAS BEEN CLOSED OFF FOR A DECADE, THINGS HAVE JUST MOVED ON AND BECOME MORE EFFICIENT.
PHYSICALLY, IT’S STILL HARD, BUT IN DIFFERENT WAYS; THINGS ARE MORE STABLE BECAUSE IT’S A NORTH SIDE SO COLDER, AND THE BASECAMP AT SUGHET JANGAL IS MUCH LOWER THAN MOST 8000m BASECAMPS AND IN A MUCH MORE HABITABLE PLACE, SO THAT HELPS A LOT WITH STAYING OUT THERE. THERE’S ALSO NO REAL SANITATION RISKS, YOU CAN DRINK THE WATER AT CAMP WHICH YOU WOULD NEVER DO AT ANY OTHER 8000m CAMP.
THE HARD BIT IS THE TEAM DOES ALL THE WORK. ALL THE CARRIES, ALL THE ROPES, ALL THE PLANNING, ALL WITHOUT BOTTLED OXYGEN. THIS KEEPS THINGS VERY LIGHT, SO CONDITIONS ARE NOT THE LUXURY MOST BASECAMPS ARE THESE DAYS. THE ROUTES TOO ARE STEEPER, SO MORE MIXED STYLE CLIMBING.
WM: WHY NO OXYGEN?
FTRE: OXYGEN IS AN INDUSTRY AND THAT INDUSTRY ISN’T PRESENT ON THE NORTH SIDE. TO GET THE O SETS AND THE FILLED BOTTLES AT A BASECAMP REQUIRES A BACKEND OF COMMERCIAL ACTIVITY THAT ELSEWHERE IS WELL ESTABLISHED AND GREASED, BUT IN XINJIANG SIMPLY DOESN’T EXIST. ON THE SHARP END, THE WAY OXYGEN IS USUALLY USED IS WITH SUPPORT STAFF TO CARRY IT AND STOCK IT AT PERMANENT CAMPS ON THE ROUTE – THE NORTH SIDE OF K2 JUST ISN’T CLIMBED THAT WAY AND THERE CERTAINLY ISN’T THE LOGISTICS TO CARRY ALL THE SPENT OXYGEN BOTTLES OUT AGAIN. EVEN ON EVEREST WHERE THERE’S THE LOGISTICS OF A SMALL TOWN THEY STILL CAN’T GET THE OLD BOTTLES OUT ALONG WITH THE REST OF THE TRASH. THAT’S A SCENARIO THAT WE AIM TO KEEP FROM SPREADING TO THE NORTH SIDE OF THE KARAKORAM LIKE IT HAS TO EVERY OTHER 8000m BASECAMP ALMOST.
WE ALSO DON’T HAVE AN INTEREST IN MAKING IT HAPPEN. UNTIL ABOUT A DECADE AGO K2 ALMOST NEVER WAS CLIMBED WITH OXYGEN – IT’S ENTIRELY POSSIBLE TO DO SO. IT DOES REQUIRE A DIFFERENT STRATEGY – EVERYTHING WORK DIFFERENTLY BECAUSE AS THE CANADIAN CLIMBER CHRIS SZYMIC ONCE SAID “IT’S NOT ABOUT GETTING BOTTLES OF OXYGEN UP AND DOWN THE MOUNTAIN”, BUT NOT LONG AGO THAT WAS THE NORM EVEN FOR NEWER CLIMBERS. IT FEELS LIKE THIS IS AN ABILITY THE CLIMBING WORLD HAS ALMOST LOST TO INDUSTRIAL-STYLE CLIMBING BECAUSE IT’S HARD TO MAKE NON-OXYGEN ASCENTS IN PLACES WHERE IT IS NOW THE ESTABLISHED WAY.
WE LIKE THE IDEA OF KEEPING ONE LAST PLACE FREE OF THE INDUSTRIAL REACH OF 8000m CLIMBING, WHERE THERE’S NO COMMERCIAL ENTERPRISE RUNNING IT, JUST INDEPENDENT TEAMS OF CLIMBERS AND THE SKILLS AND TRADITIONS THAT GO WITH THAT.
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WM: YOU SAY IT (THE NORTH SIDE OF K2) HAS BEEN CLOSED FOR 10 YEARS?
FTRE: LONGER. AS OF 2022 WHEN IT REOPENS THERE WON’T HAVE BEEN ANY ATTEMPT FROM THE NORTH SIDE SINCE 2011. AS FAR AS WE KNOW EVEN NO TREKKING TEAMS HAVE BEEN UP THE K2 GLACIER.
WM: AND YOU WERE INVOLVED IN THAT?
FTRE: IN A WAY, THOUGH WE DIDN’T RUN THE TRIP. THE PREVIOUS YEAR WE HAD BEEN CLIMBING K2 FROM THE PAKISTAN SIDE AND GOT TO KNOW GERLINDE KALTENBRUMMER AND RALF DUJMOVITZ QUITE WELL. WE HAD ALREADY BEEN TO CHECK OUT THE NORTH SIDE PREVIOUSLY, AND AFTER THINGS WENT BAD ON THE PAKISTAN SIDE THAT YEAR WE TALKED ABOUT THE NORTH SIDE. THEY WENT WITH A KYRGYZ COMPANY BECAUSE SOME OF THEIR TEAM WERE FROM CENTRAL ASIA. THERE WERE STAFF PROBLEMS, BUT THEY ALL SUMMITED. WE STILL CONFER WITH RALF.
WM: WHY WAS IT CLOSED?
FTRE: HARD TO SAY REALLY. IT’S NOT AS VOLATILE AS THE SITUATION IN PAKISTAN, AND WE HAVE BEEN OUT NEAR THERE ON OTHER TRIPS WITHOUT PROBLEMS, THOUGH A FOREIGN TEAM ON SPURIOUS PERMITS HAD TROUBLE OUT THERE DURING THAT TIME THAT WOULDN’T HAVE HELPED. WE WERE ALSO TOLD THAT FLOODS HAD MADE ISSUES OUT THERE. THINGS ACTUALLY WERE LOOKING GOOD FOR 2019, THEN COVID CAME ALONG.
WM: SO 2022 IS ON?
FTRE: WE’VE BEEN EXPLICITLY TOLD THAT WHEN BORDERS REOPEN THE PERMITS WILL BE ISSUED. STARTING IN 2017 WE HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH THE CHINESE MOUNTAINEERING ASSOCIATIONS ACROSS FOUR PROVINCES ON A WEEKLY BASIS, REFINING AND CROSSING ALL THE T’S. NO ONE IS 100% SURE WHAT IT WILL BE LIKE IN THERE, MAKING IT AS CLOSE TO AN UNCHARTED 8000m TRIP AS HAS BEEN POSSIBLE IN DECADES, BUT THAT’S HALF THE ATTRACTION. IT WON’T COME AGAIN.
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K2 ISN’T THE PLACE TO BRING FRAGILE TECHNOLOGY THAT ONLY HAS FAIRWEATHER RESULTS
WM: YOU MAKE SUSTAINABILITY A BIG PART OF FEEDING THE RAT EXPEDITION’S PROFILE. HOW DOES THAT WORK IN CHINA?
FTRE: IT WORKS REALLY WELL. THE WORLD THINKS OF CHINA AS THIS BOTTOMLESS HOLE OF ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE, BUT IT’S MORE COMPLEX THAN THAT. THEY ALSO TAKE MANAGING MOUNTAIN AREAS VERY SERIOUSLY, TO THE DEGREE THEY ROUTINELY CLOSE DOWN ENTIRE RANGES FOR CLIMBING FOR YEARS, TO REDUCE THE IMPACT OF TOURISM. WITH THE NORTH SIDE OF THE KARAKORAM, THERE IS NO PLAN TO INCREASE ACCESS TO THE PEAKS OUT THERE, SO BY DEFAULT THE AREA IS VERY UNTOUCHED, SO WE HAVE DECIDED TO KEEP IT THAT WAY.
BIG PICTURE-WISE WE SEE THE ISSUES WITH AFFLUENT CLIMBERS FLYING AROUND THE GLOBE WITH ALL THEIR GEAR JUST TO CLIMB A MOUNTAIN – IT’S HARD TO JUSTIFY – SO WE USE SIMPLE MEASURES TO ADDRESS IT. WE FIGURE IF WE CAN HAVE A CLIMBER ON A TRIP WITH US IT HAS MUCH LOWER IMPACT THAN THAT CLIMBER GOING ON A TRIP TO ANY OTHER 8000m PEAK.
WM: HOW DO YOU FIGURE THAT?
FTRE: IT’S ACTUALLY NOT HARD. ONCE IN THE MOUNTAINS A CLIMBER SHOULD EFFECTIVELY BE ZERO EMMISSIONS, ASIDE FROM THE GAS FROM THE STOVE – THEY’RE NOT USING CARS OR ELECTRICITY etc. THIS OF COURSE DOESN’T MAKE A DENT ON THE FLIGHTS etc TO GET THERE, SO WE ADDRESS WHAT WE CAUSE BY OFF-SETTING IT WITH THINGS THAT REDUCE EMISSIONS.
WM: DO YOU THINK OFF-SETTING PROGRAMS HAVE VALUE?
FTRE: MOSTLY NO – I THINK THE MAJORITY OF OFF-SETTING PROGRAMS ARE A SCAM AT WORST AND A DROP IN THE OCEAN AT BEST BECAUSE THEY DON’T MATCH IMPACT TO SOLUTION. BURNING TWELVE TONNES OF FUEL CROSSING THE PACIFIC WON’T BE ADDRESSED BY PLANTING TREES THAT HOPEFULLY WILL HELP IN 20 YEARS TIME. THE SMALL % OF PROGRAMS WE THINK ACTUALLY WORK ARE ONES THAT TRADE LIKE FOR LIKE – EMISSIONS FOR NO EMISSIONS, SO WIND, SOLAR, MICRO-HYDRO etc. IN OUR CASE WE FUND A PROGRAM THAT GETS RID OF COAL BURNING STOVES IN THE HOMES OF POOR PARTS OF CHINA AND REPLACES THEM WITH MORE EFFICIENT AND LESS TOXIC STOVES THAT BURN THINGS LIKE SAW DUST AND CORK HUSKS. LESS EMISSIONS IS OBVIOUS – IN REAL TIME AND RIGHT AT THE SOURCE TOO – BUT THE HEALTH EFFECTS ARE MAYBE EVEN A BIGGER FACTOR, ESPECIALLY FOR THE WOMEN WHO ARE AROUND THE STOVES MORE.
WM: AND THIS BALANCES OUT THE POLLUTION OF CLIMBERS COMING TO CHINA?
FTRE: EASILY, AND WE CAN SEE IT FACE TO FACE TOO. WE ACTUALLY DOUBLE DOWN ON THE OFF-SETTING BY BUYING INTO TWICE AS MANY STOVES AS THE NUMBERS THE BROKER CLAIMS IS THE BALANCE.
MIND YOU, THIS ONLY WORKS FOR US BECAUSE OUR FOOTPRINT IS RELATIVELY SMALL COMPARED TO OTHER 8000m OPERATIONS. CHENGDU TAKES FEWER FLIGHTS TO GET TO, CHINESE DOMESTIC AIRCRAFT ARE MORE EFFICIENT, WE HAVE FAR, FAR FEWER PEOPLE INVOLVED BECAUSE WE USE CAMELS – WHO ARE NATIVE ANIMALS – FOR PORTAGE, OUR VEHICLES ARE MORE EFFICIENT AND ALL OUR RESOURCES ARE IN-COUNTRY REQUIRING SMALLER FOOTPRINTS TO SECURE. I KNOW PEOPLE LIKE TO PICK ON CHINA, BUT AS FAR AS EFFICIENCY GOES IT’S WAY AHEAD OF WHAT YOU’LL FIND IN PAKISTAN. A 12 SEATER VAN GOING AT 100kph DOWN A NEW FREEWAY SPILLS HALF THE FUEL AS A CONVOY OF JEEPS GOING AT 20kph THROUGH MUD.
WM: WHICH TIES IN WELL TO TECHNOLOGY. YOU DON’T LIKE THE TECHNOLOGY OF BOTTLED OXYGEN SO WHAT TECHNOLOGY DO YOU ACCEPT?
FTRE: IT’S NOT THAT WE ARE AGAINST BOTTLED OXYGEN TECHNOLOGY, IT’S THAT WE CHOOSE NOT TO REPLACE HUMAN CAPABILITY WITH IT AND THE TRADITIONS THAT GO WITH THAT, KNOWING IT CAN BE DONE WITHOUT. JUST LIKE MOUNTAINS CAN ALSO BE CLIMBED WITHOUT HELICOPTERS, THE INTERNET AND IPADS.
WE RUN WITH ANY TECHNOLOGY THAT MAKES HIGH ALTITUDE CLIMBING A SMALLER FOOTPRINT. IF THINGS CAN BE CLIMBED WITHOUT THE BACK END OF BOTTLED OXYGEN, FIXING ENTIRE ROUTES AND PERMENANT CAMPS – AND THEY ALWAYS HAVE BEEN – THEN WE RUN WITH IT, AND NOT JUST OUT OF SOME PURIST ETHIC BUT BECAUSE IT’S A REALLY INTERESTING THING TO DO AND THE TECHNOLOGY THAT GOES WITH IT IS COOL. WE WORK WITH THE COMPANY SUSTAINABLE INDUSTRIES ON HAVING ZERO EMISSION CAMPS THAT USE MICRO-HYDRO, WIND & SOLAR POWER, THEN WE WORK WITH GEAR COMPANIES TO HAVE STUFF THAT’S LIGHTER AND MORE EFFICIENT TO USE.
WM: WHAT ARE THE RESULTS WITH ALL THAT?
FTRE: PRETTY COOL STUFF. AT OUR SIZE OF OPERATION HAVING A BASECAMP RUN ENTIRELY ON GENERATED POWER IS VERY DOABLE, EVEN FOR COOKING. THERE’S ROOM FOR DEVELOPMENT OF COURSE BECAUSE THE ENVIRONMENT IS OUTSIDE OF WHAT MOST TECHNOLOGY IS DESIGNED AROUND, BUT IT’S AN INDUSTRY THAT LOVES THESE CHALLENGES.
WE DON’T MESS AROUND WITH FRINGE OR ACADEMIC FACTORS BECAUSE WE NEED A BIG MARGIN, SO ONLY RUN WITH THE IDEA OF ONLY USING THINGS THAT SHOW ‘DOUBLE DIGIT ADVANTAGES’ WHETHER IT’S POWER SUPPLY OR CLIMBING EQUIPMENT LIKE INSULATION AND THERMAL PROPERTIES. K2 ISN’T THE PLACE TO BRING FRAGILE TECHNOLOGY THAT ONLY HAS FAIRWEATHER RESULTS. COMBINED WITH SWITCHING TO ELECTRIC VEHICLES FOR THE TRANSPORT, BY 2025 WE AIM TO BE 100% NEUTRAL.
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WM: RECENTLY YOU’VE STARTED ADVOCATING A PRE-ACCLIMATION PROGRAM SIMILAR TO WHAT SEVERAL OTHER COMPANIES USE. HOW HAVE YOU SEEN THE AFFECTS OF THAT?
FTRE: OUR PREACCLIMATION PROGRAM IS NOTHING LIKE THE ONES YOU SEE IN NEPAL AND PAKISTAN.
WM: CAN YOU EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE?
FTRE: OUR PREACC PROGRAM IS JUST THE OLD SCHOOL VERSION OF ASCENT AND DESCENT TO ACTUAL ALTITUDE THRESHOLDS BUT DONE USING THE ADVANTAGE MODERN CHINA ALLOWS. ANYWHERE ELSE YOU NEED TO ACTUALLY CLIMB TO DIFFERENT ALTITUDES AND STAY IN TENTS TO ADAPT TO THE ALTITUDE, BUT IN CHINA THERE’S ROADS AND HOTELS TO THOSE SORT OF ALTITUDES SO WE CAN DO IT MUCH MORE EFFICIENTLY AND COMFORTABLY.
WM: AND IT WORKS?
FTRE: WE’VE BEEN DOING IT FOR WELL OVER A DECADE NOW WITH RESULTS ON TIBETAN PEAKS.
WM: HOW IS THIS BETTER THAN THE OTHER SYSTEMS?
FTRE: THE ‘SPORTS-MEDICAL’ SYSTEMS USE A MIX OF TECHNOLOGY OF WHICH THE PREACCLIMATION PART IS NOT REALLY THE MAIN FACTOR AND WHICH AREN’T REALLY THAT IMPRESSIVE BECAUSE THEY CAN’T BE. JUST SLEEPING IN A NORMOBARIC TENT AS YOUR STRESSOR THRESHOLD IS PRETTY MINIMAL AND ONLY GETS YOU SO FAR – BASICALLY REDUCING SOME OF THE STRESS OF THE APPROACH TO AN 8000m PEAK – WHICH IN SOME CASES EVEN USES HELICOPTERS. THE RESULTS ON THE MOUNTAIN COME FROM THE HIGH-FLOW OXYGEN SETS AND SUPER-ASSISTED CLIMBING STRATEGIES THEY USE. THIS CAN BE VIEWED AS ‘MAXIMUM FOOTPRINT CLIMBING’ AS THE BACKEND TO PUT ONE PERSON ON A HIGH SUMMIT IS HUGE.
OUR METHOD ISN’T ‘BETTER’ PER SE BECAUSE WE DON’T AFFECT THE CLIMBING PART LIKE THEY DO, BUT AS FAR AS ACTUAL ADAPTION TO ALTITUDE GOES OUR METHOD IS MUCH. MUCH BETTER. BECAUSE WE SPEND 100% OF THE PROCESS ACTUALLY AT THE ALTITUDES WE OPTIMIZE ON THE METABOLIC ADAPTIONS, UNLIKE THE TENT VERSIONS WHERE FOR 2/3 OF THE TIME YOU ARE JUST BACK AT SEA LEVEL. TENT PROGRAMS ALSO GET IT AROUND THE LESS EFFECTIVE WAY. ADAPTION IS DONE DURING REST, WHEREAS THE STRESSOR PHASE WHERE YOU GO TO YOUR UPPER THRESHOLD IS DONE ACTIVELY.
NORMABARIC TENT SYSTEMS ALSO ARE FAIRLY IMPRECISE BECAUSE YOU ARE SIMPLY SITTING IN A TENT AND GOING ON THE NUMBERS, IT’S LAB STUFF MORE THAN REAL WORLD STUFF. IN A CAR IN TIBET WE CAN CHOOSE OUR ALTITUDES TO THREE METER INCREMENTS WHILST BOTH ACTIVE AND AT REST SO WE REALLY KNOW HOW ADAPTED WE ARE. WE GET TO SEE THE EFFECTS ON APPETITE AND RECOVERY IN REAL TIME, BOTH OF WHICH ARE PRETTY SPURIOUS WHEN DONE HYPOTHETICALLY. ANYONE WHO HAS USED A HEART RATE MONITOR FOR TRAINING WILL KNOW HOW UNREPRESENTATIVE THEY ARE OF ACTUAL CONDITION WITHOUT EVERYTHING ELSE TO COMPARE WITH.
WM: AND DRIVING AROUND TIBET FOR TWO WEEKS HAS LESS EMISSIONS IMPACT?
FTRE: IN ELECTRIC CARS IT DOES. AND PROBABLY WHEN YOU ADD UP ALL THE OTHER FACTORS OF A SPORTS-MEDICAL STYLE TRIP AS WELL. THERE’S NO CONTEST ONCE HELICOPTERS ARE IN THE MIX.
THE COOL THINGS WITH ELECTRIC CARS IS THEY PERFORM MUCH BETTER THAN FUEL AT ALTITUDE. ONCE YOU GET OVER 4000m – WHICH IS NOTHING IN EASTERN TIBET AS THERE’S BIG TOWNS AT THOSE ALTITUDES – 30% OF FUEL IS BURNED TO NO EFFECT.
WM: THERE’S NO PROBLEMS WITH CHARGING THEM OUT THERE?
FTRE: NOT IF YOU PLAN FOR IT. THE CHINESE MARKET FOR THESE CARS IS HUGE SO EV STATIONS ARE POPPING UP EVERYWHERE INCLUDING TIBET AND SOME OF HIGH ALTITUDE TOWNS WE GO TO – REALLY REMOTE PLACES – ALREADY HAVE ALL THE TAXIS IN ELECTRIC.. THE LOCALS HAVE ALWAYS KNOWN THIS WOULD WORK FOR THEM, BUT THE BIG THING IS EV’S BEING A THING FOR AFFLUENT CITY FOLK, OVERLAPPING WITH THE TRENDS IN DOMESTIC TOURISM THAT CENTRE ON DRIVING TO TIBET. A COOL THING IS THAT THE GENERATION OF STUDENTS WHO CYCLED TO TIBET – WHICH IS A HUGE THING IN CHINA, LIKE THEIR EQUIVALENT OF PARTYING IN MEXICO – ARE NOW GETTING HIGH TECH INDUSTRY JOBS AND REPEATING THE TRIP IN THEIR TESLA’S. HIGH ALTITUDE TRAVEL IN CHINA IS NOT WHERE IT IS FOR EVERYONE ELSE – WHILE THE WEST IS PLAYING AROUND WITH HEART RATE MONITORS AND SLEEPING IN TENTS THEY ARE PLAYING WITH MASS TRANSIT.
WM: WHAT RESULTS WILL BE SEEN ON K2?
FTRE: ACCLIMATION IN EASTERN TIBET THEN A QUICK TRANSIT TO THE APPROACH IN XINJIANG PUTS US AT THE START OF THE CLIMBING ADAPTED TO ABOUT 6000m ABOUT THREE WEEKS EARLIER THAN PREVIOUS TEAMS. THIS MEANS WE CAN GO SWIFTLY TO CAMP 1 DIRECTLY AND STAY THEN START PUSHING TO THE HIGHER CAMPS. THIS REDUCES TIME SPEND IN THE LOWER SECTIONS THE MOST PRONE TO AVALANCHES, AS WELL AS ARRIVE A BIT LATER WHEN TEMPERATURES HAVE EASED.
A MAJOR ISSUE WITH THE NORTH SIDE IS THE CARRIES UP THE GLACIER. THE CAMELS CAN’T GO UP THE ICE SO IT’S ALL HUMAN POWER AND THAT’S BEEN REAL CLUSTERF*CK OF LOGISTICS IN THE PAST BECAUSE IT’S ALSO RIGHT WHEN CLIMBERS BREACH 5000m AND NEED TO ACCLIMATE. IT SHOULD BE THE MOST DYNAMIC PART OF THE TRIP BUT INSTEAD IT’S LOCKED INTO PROBLEMATIC LOGISTICS.
THE NUMBER ONE BIT OF ADVICE RALF DUJMOVITZ GAVE FOR THIS ROUTE IS SHOW UP ACCLIMATED AND GET CLIMBING. IF ANYONE KNOWS ABOUT 8000m CLIMBING IT’S RALF, COMING FROM THE MESSNER ERA RIGHT THROUGH TO HIS TRIPS WITH GERLINDE HE’S NO RECENT HOTSHOT YET TO BE PROVEN AND HE DOESN’T REPRESENT COMMERCIAL INTERESTS, SO WE TAKE HIS ADVICE SERIOUSLY.
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WM: YOU TALK ALSO ABOUT THE NORTH SIDES OF THE GASHERBRUMS AND BROAD PEAK OPENING UP AS WELL. ARE TRIPS PLANNED FOR THERE?
FTRE: ACTUALLY THEY ARE THE EAST SIDES AS THE BORDER CHANGES DIRECTION, IT’S MORE THAN ACADEMIC THOUGH AS IT ALTERS THE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE, BUT IT’S STILL THE NORTH SIDE OF THE KARAKORAM RANGE. ANYWAY I GET YOUR POINT – YES, TRIPS ARE PLANNED FOR THERE TOO.
WM: HAVE THOSE PEAKS BEEN CLIMBED FROM THE CHINESE SIDE?
FTRE: THEY HAVE, MOSTLY DURING THE 90’S AND EARLY 2000’S, BUT VERY FEW PEOPLE HAVE BEEN OUT THERE. THOSE PLACES MAKE EVEN THE NORTH SIDE OF K2 LOOK POPULAR.
WE HAVE THE PERMISSIONS AND LOGISTICS IN PLACE TO GO THERE AND INITIAL INTEREST SO IN 2022 WILL HEAD OUT IN COMBINATION WITH OUR K2 SCHEDULE.
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WM: THE LAST YEAR AS SEEN FEEDING THE RAT EXPEDITIONS’ RISE AS A GEAR REVIEW SOURCE, SOMETHING ALSO COMMON WITH THE BIG COMPANIES DOING EVEREST TRIPS. IS THIS A NEW COMMERCIAL SIDE TO THE BUSINESS?
FTRE: YES AND NO – IT’S COMMERCIAL FOR US BUT WE ARE NOT RETAILERS SO IT’S NOT PARTICULARLY LUCRATIVE.
WE HAVE THE SUPPORT OF SEVERAL COMPANIES TO PROVIDE EQUIPMENT TO OUR TEAM MEMBERS BUT ARE NOT SET UP TO SELL TO THE GENERAL CONSUMER PUBLIC. THIS MEANS IF YOU’RE ON A TRIP OF OURS OR PLANNING A TRIP WITH US WE CAN SUPPLY YOU EQUIPMENT AT INDUSTRY PRICES.
THE REVIEWS WE USE AS AN INTERFACE WITH THE 8000m SCENE. WE DON’T HAVE ANY SPONSORED ALLEGIENCE TO UPHOLD SO WE CAN BE VERY HONEST, BUT REALLY WE JUST FILTER WHAT EQUIPMENT WE USE FROM THE START BECAUSE THE NORTH SIDE OF K2 REQUIRES A CERTAIN TYPE OF GEAR. COMMERCIAL 8000m CLIMBING GEAR THESE DAYS IS MOSTLY MADE FOR INDUSTRIAL-STYLE CLIMBING, SO CHERRY PICKING THE STUFF THAT WORKS FOR ALPINE STYLE 8000m ASCENTS IS IT’S OWN PROCESS.
WM: WHAT’S THE DIFFERENCE?
FTRE: LIKE FOR LOWER ALTITUDE CLIMBING, ALPINE STYLE GEAR IS MORE STREAMLINED BECAUSE YOU CARRY IT YOURSELF ON THE GO, THERE’S NO BIG CAMPS TO STOCK IT IN. YOU’RE NOT CARRYING MULTIPLE LAYERS AND -40 SLEEPING BAGS BECAUSE THE ROOM DOESN’T EXIST TO USE THEM IN, SO YOU NEED OTHER GEAR USED IN DIFFERENT WAYS FOR THE JOB. YOU ALSO SPEND MORE TIME ACTIVELY CLIMBING; INDUSTRIAL ASCENTS ARE A PROCESS OF ASCENDING BETWEEN OXYGEN SUPPLIES, IN PROCESSION ALONG FIXED LINES AND WITH SCHEDULED SPACES IN TENTS, AND THE GEAR CATERS TO THAT.
K2 NORTH STYLE GEAR NEEDS TO BE SIMPLER, TO BE USED IN SMALLER CAMPS AND TO WORK FOR ALPINE STYLE CLIMBING ie PRECISE FOOTWORK, AROUND RACKS OF HARDWARE, TWO TOOLS ABOVE YOUR HEAD, MUCH STEEPER TERRAIN. FOR THIS SORT OF THING WE LIKE VERY LIGHT, ATHLETIC GEAR, OFTEN USING HIGH TECH MATERIALS THAT PUSHES THE FUNCTION. ON EVEREST ANY OLD STRAIGHT AXE WILL WORK WHEREAS ON THE NORTH RIDGE OF K2 CARBON LAMINATE TOOLS HAVE SEVERAL VERY NOTICEABLE ADVANTAGES.
WE LIKE GETTING OUR REVIEWS OUT THERE BECAUSE IT GIVES EXTRA DEPTH TO THE CHOICES PEOPLE MAKE. COMMERCIAL 8000m CLIMBING IS VERY TUNNEL VISIONED WITH SURPRISINGLY LITTLE CROSS POLLINATION WITH OTHER STRAINS OF CLIMBING THESE DAYS. WE LIKE TO BROADEN THE PERSPECTIVE A BIT.
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WM: WHAT’S THE FUTURE FOR FEEDING THE RAT EXPEDITIONS? WHERE DO YOU GO FROM THE NORTH SIDE OF K2?
FTRE: FOR 8000m CLIMBING WE HAVE THE NEXT FEW YEARS FOCUSED AT K2 AND THE CHINESE SIDES OF G1 AND BROAD PEAK. TRIPS HAVE BEEN BACKING UP BECAUSE OF COVID SO IT’S THE TIME TO WORK WITH THE CHINESE AUTHORITES TO GET A GOOD SUSTAINABLE BLUEPRINT IN PLACE. WHETHER INTEREST THERE WILL MUSHROOM IS HARD TO SAY, THOUGH I PERSONALLY DON’T THINK SO – 8000m CLIMBING IS NOW ABOUT SLICKER CONVENIENCE, THE DAYS OF IT BEING ABOUT SERIOUS MOUNTAINEERING ARE MOSTLY OVER, WITH VERY, VERY FEW CLIMBERS EVOLVING IN THIS DIRECTION. PRETTY SOON NOW THE CLIMBING GENERATIONS THAT KNEW INDEPENDENT HIGH ALTITUDE CLIMBING WILL BE HISTORY (IF THEY’RE NOT ALREADY), SO IT WILL BE IN THE HANDS OF THE FEW EMERGING KIDS WHO PUT IT TOGETHER FOR THEMSELVES. THAT’S WHERE WE ARE LOOKING.
OTHER THAN THAT, EVOLUTION IN THINGS LIKE PACKRAFTS ALONGSIDE IMPROVED ACCESS IN CHINA HAS MADE FOR SOME VERY COOL IDEAS COMBING FIRST ASCENTS AND FIRST DESCENTS OF REMOTE PEAKS AND RIVERS. NO ONE HAS DONE THIS STUFF BEFORE AND SOMETHING THAT WE LIKE IS THE WAY THESE RIVERS CHANGE THEIR TERMINATION EACH YEAR.
THEN THERE’S THE DOZENS OF 6000-7000m PEAKS IN THE NORTHERN KARAKORAM. AND UNNAMED PEAKS IN TIBET. THERE’S ALSO SEVERAL VERY REMOTE HIGH PEAKS ACROSS THE PLATEAU THAT ARE BARELY SEEN. LET ALONE CLIMBED.
WM: LAST WORDS?
FTRE: PEOPLE SEEM TO THINK THE DAYS ARE OVER OF SERIOUS EXPLORATORY CLIMBING TRIPS, CITING THINGS LIKE GOOGLE EARTH AS MAKING THE ENTIRE PLANET NOW KNOWN, BUT NO SERIOUS ADVENTURER BUYS THAT. JUST BECAUSE THERE’S A PHOTO OF SOMEWHERE DOESN’T REALLY MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE – THERE WERE PHOTO’S OF K2 IN THE 1800’S BUT IT STILL TOOK PEOPLE OF A CERTAIN CALIBRE TO ACTUALLY GO THERE.
THE THING THAT REALLY CHANGES IS APPETITE TO GO TO THESE PLACES. AS 9/11 AND COVID SHOWED US – AT ANY MINUTE THINGS CAN JUST CLOSE DOWN. DESPITE THE WORLD BEING MORE OPEN NOW THAN IT EVER HAS BEEN, IT DOESN’T MEAN IT CAN’T CLOSE THE DOORS AGAIN AND IT CAN TAKE A GENERATION TO RESTART THE GAME, SORT OF WHAT WE SAW AFTER 9/11 AND THEN COVID HIT.
PLACES LIKE K2 AND TIBET NEVER HAVE BEEN EASY TO GET TO. THERE’S ALWAYS BEEN POLITICAL, SECURITY AND LOGISTICAL DIFFICULTIES – WAITING FOR THOSE TO DISAPPEAR BEFORE DECIDING TO GO IS A FANTASY. WHAT GETS RESULTS IS PUTTING YOUR HAND UP TO MAKE THE ATTEMPT. WE CAN’T GUARANTEE A SUMMIT LIKE TRIPS TO THE TRADEROUTES OF 8000m PEAKS ARE GETTING CLOSE TO BEING ABLE TO, BUT WE CAN ARRANGE TRIPS TO THE LAST REAL 8000m WILDERNESSES TO TRY.
